Well I gotta say ... this is one of the best explained pieces on this subject ever - also quite partial since part of my email is in honor to Dante. Such a great piece of work and so many people don't get it -- I love how you bring to light that Dante called it La Comedia.
I thought so, too. As I was reading it, I thought, "Wow, I wish I had this when I taught seniors in high school." I would have handed this out the first day.
So fascinating! I feel like the way he talks about heaven is a metaphor for all celebrity in a way— whether it’s a famous person or a guru or a scholar or anyone we gaze at without valuing our own wisdom. All of a sudden we’ve forgotten our own experience or worth or intrinsic divinity and have given it over to someone else. This post also reminded me of a time—it was right after 9/11 in New York City and I was at a church on 5th avenue with a friend who worked with firefighters. I sat next to a Franciscan nun, and at the end of the mass we were talking and I said I wished the priest had focused less on the afterlife and more about how to build peace and hope in this world. She had the brightest blue eyes and she turned to me and said, “oh I know! The Kingdom is now!!” I love the way your post brought me back to this memory—your close read of a book I will probably never get through. It was just the idea that heaven might not be the end game. Or that it might exist in different ways, or hell might not be the worst thing either. I didn’t know that about limbo, but I loved hearing about it. It made me think of all the places to find heaven on earth, or even something better. Thanks for the deep dive!
Wow Rebecca, thank you so much for sharing this memory. Yes, we can't really live our lives in preparation for something that might never come. And I myself don't want to get swallowed in a bigger thing, but to do my thing. William Blake once wrote a friend in a letter: "Jesus is the only God, and so am I, and so are you".
Yes, I am with you on all of it! I love that about being alive--the sense that I'm part of a bigger, wonderful thing, and that's why it's so important to sing my true note as clearly as I can. Which is probably what all the artists in limbo are doing, and I'm guessing it's loud in there. Thanks for appreciating my memory. That nun was so wonderful--when I think of it now it feels like the whole conversation was a visitation. I am not often in church, and it was pure chance that I sat next to her and I don't even remember how we started talking. Later in the conversation I asked her if she missed having love affairs, and she said, "I fall in love all the time!!"
Was Blake a Quaker? That's a very Quakerly thing to say--except for the "Jesus is the only God" part.
Blake wasn't a Quaker. He was a church of one... Created his whole mythology and everything - which he knew and confessed was all in his mind, in the most important of human faculties for him: the imagination
I was listening to a talk about pleasure and one thing stuck out to me, We find it hard to imagine infinite pleasure. It's almost if human bodies are designed against it. We can imagine infinite suffering, and can describe it. Hell.
Pleasure is momentary. And it seems automatic, thoughtless. So describing pleasure is difficult. Dante becomes less readable as he ascends towards heaven just as "All happy families are alike; each unhappy family is unhappy in its own way" everything becomes vague.
I wonder if limbo is conceivable, and in its way a meaningful heaven for you. Versus an inconceivable heaven of delight that sounds about as meaningful as being drugged out of your mind but happy.
In Matthew 25:46 Jesus spoke in a single sentence of everlasting (aionios) punishment and of life eternal (aionios). Since the righteous will be given eternal, or everlasting, life, many theologians believe the punishing of the wicked must last as long as the life given to the righteous. But this cannot be reconciled with the statement that those cast into the lake of fire perish—they are killed. As explained elsewhere, they suffer death—the second death (Revelation 2:11; Revelation 20:6, Revelation 14:1-20; Revelation 21:8).
A plain and simple meaning of Matthew 25:46 that fits with the rest of the Bible is that the wicked are cast into a fire that annihilates them—renders them forever extinct. The resulting punishment of being cast into the aionios fire is a one-time event. It is a permanent punishment, the results of which will remain forever—that is, eternal death. It is not ongoing punishing that continues forever without end. This is the only explanation that agrees with the rest of the Scriptures.
A most interesting essay, Chen. I must caution you that I am a secular humanist so the afterlife is a myth as far as I'm concerned. There is good and there is evil. Good is good, and evil is bad. If you wish to clutter things up with God and the Devil, Angels and Demons, Saints and Sinners, it makes for a good narrative but I believe it over complicates things if you decide to go that route. The Hindus believe in reincarnation and there is some scientific evidence for it, but I think it would be presumptuous of me to think that, after my demise, I would qualify for that fate. Besides, after one go-round in this 'veil of tears' why would I want to go again? Thank you for sharing your thoughts on this matter, my friend.
Thanks you David for your perspective. All cultures seek a way to dethrone death from its place as the final experience it seem to me. Would you agree?
Tes, Chen, I do agree but this tendency seems to be waning just like Religion. Think about it: during the Middle Ages, Religion held sway with an iron fist and everyone was consumed with their niche in the Afterlife. After the Protestant Reformation and many 'Holy' wars and the Enlightenment, many people today don't put much stock in Religion. Granted, the Theocracies in the Middle East still try to abide by religious principles but many of their constituents are 'restless'. Large swaths of Asia still venerate their ancestors but religious fervor, in general, seems to be lessening. As the population becomes more educated,, Religion has lost a lot of the 'glamor' it once commanded. Science has claimed a share of the authority that Religion once had and today, many people approach Death from a more logical viewpoint. I hope this has clarified my position about Death and the Afterlife, my friend.
Nietzsche either had syphilis or congenital cerebral disease or both. The abysmal thought is that your life recurs endlessly which entails always being unwell. If you can accept it you reach the state of grace. As for forming one’s own opinion Nietzsche says: leave me now and find yourselves; and only then when you have denied me will I return to you.
The most influential thinker of the last 200 years claimed that his most important thought was the eternal recurrence of the same. He said that every life repeats itself exactly as it happened and will happen to the end of time which doesn’t end. That is his abysmal thought. He said: to redeem the past is to turn every ‘it was’ into ‘I wanted it thus’ that alone I would call redemption. Whether it is heaven or hell is how you look at it. It is an attempt to reconcile the problem of free will and determinism.
Was this 'influential thinker' a Calvinist? As I said, Robert, I am a secular humanist and I find these various philospies somewhat interesting, but I put no stock in any of them. Acording to some people who are much more intelligent than I, 'Free Will' does not actually exist, but what we do have is so close to free will that it is indistinguishable from it. That is splitting hairs as far as I'm concerned, so I don't worry about it. I hope this has clarified my position on these matters.
He was a Lutheran in his early life. I was referring to Nietzsche. Apparently Lutherans have a doctrine called amor fati I love my fate which he seemed unable to escape. But he got the eternal recurrence from pre-Socratic thinkers.
If I remember correctly, Nietzsche suffered from poor health most of his life and this probably contributed to his various opinions. After his death, his sister tried to twist his works in support of Fascism, but this was rejected by other philosophers and he enjoyed a resurgence in popularity in the 60s and his works do influence many other philosophrts even today. Perhaps you would label me a Contrarian, but I prefer to form my own opinions even if they are in opposition to the accepted views. As I stated to Chen, there is a small body of scientific evidence in support of re-incarnation. I hope not! Once is enough!
I once heard someone speak this wonderful language which sounded like Moroccan (my family is originally from Morocco) and Italian combined - both languages I adore. It was Maltese
It's a rarity in Aotearoa! You're completely onto it too- ancient Maghrebi. That's awesome, such a wondrous place Morocco is- always reminded me of a vivid splash of fantastical, delicious colours and patterns! I hope you don't mind me enquiring- are you of Sephardic descent? My Maltese family has some Sephardic ancestry.
I am! yes. Both of my family names (my father's and Mother's) are Sephardic in origin. I was told that Malul is an ancient word in Spanish which means Oak tree... But I'm not sure how factual this is
Fascinating. I recently read Fred Chappell's poem Midquest, which is a sort of Appalachian version of Dante's midlife evaluation. Your essay has enriched my reading of it considerably.
Fred was my writing instructor in the 80s. He died early this year, so I've been reading some of his work I'd missed. Your post was very timely in shedding more light on how he was influenced by Dante.
This is such a compelling argument! It sounds like a perpetual salon, which totally appeals to me. Who decides if we've sinned, though?
Thought you'd enjoy knowing about this very cool theoretical project by the early 20th century Italian architect, Giuseppe Terragni, called the Danteum. It's a physical version of Dante's great work. https://archeyes.com/the-danteum-giuseppe-terragni/
Fun article to read! Thanks for writing it! However, I question the decision to go to the first circle of hell over Heaven (not Eden--Eden is the Earthly Paradise at the top of Mount Purgatory). I love studying the nature of things and think an eternity with Homer, Aristotle, Cicero would be wonderful. However, although it is good, is it the best? Human nature enjoys the big questions and the philosophy behind them, I think, because we engage powerfully with our intellects. Our minds grapple with the questions; we use the faculty most proper to man: reason. However, and this can only be known with a Christian faith, that reason is the imago Dei: the image and likeness of God. We fill our intellects on Earth and engage in these universal questions because it is godlike and good. We are trying to fill our intellects. In Limbo, our intellects would certainly be expanded and more powerful than most on earth--if not all. However, I think a closer examination of Paradiso will be fruitful in this matter. Dante's journey is three movements of the soul: the repentance of the will (Hell), the correction of the will (Purgatory), and the filling of the intellect (Heaven). Dante is wicked smart in Heaven. He correctly answers all questions concerning faith, hope, and love. He also does not understand everything, as he continually asks Beatrice about this and that. Remember we have not talked about the nature of God. Crack open the summa Prima Pars. Read a bit. Read about man's final end (idk if that one is prima pars) God is man's end. Heaven fills the intellect and will. Limbo would be a cool idea if we could escape earth and go there for a little while. But not eternity. Heaven will only suffice. Thanks for reading this long comment. Message me with any questions. I love Dante (but not as much as Homer). I love discussing him as well.
What an awesome publication to read. I feel a bit more intelligent just experiencing the dichotomy of introspection and history that you so skillfully wove together.
Chen, you might have said this about Limbo. Students asked me about this a lot.
According to Christian belief, only those who were baptized and sought repentance for their sins in life can enter Eden, likely after undergoing purification in Purgatory. We may not accept it, but that's how things happen.
Why did they have to go there if they were virtuous? It's kind of bad luck, right? They were born before Jesus. So, they never had a chance to follow, so they ended up in a not so bad spot in the first circle of hell.
Love this fun an insightful examination of the worlds Dante describes! Have to agree with the assessment here... I've been ranting about a (somewhat raunchier) version of this idea since high school. "...if you want to preserve your individuality and engage in open discussions about life, the universe, and everything else with the greatest minds of the ancient world, as well as from the Muslim, and possibly the Jewish, and the polytheistic traditions, I'd wager you're better off being sent to the first circle of hell. In heaven, you'll be too busy marveling at the beauty of God to get anything else done."
Nice deep dive. Dante is like Milton in that the most compelling and inspired sections of his prose ironically involve what he, for lack of a better word, condemns, at least outwardly (in MIlton's case, Satan, and in Dante's Hell).
I don't remember that Joseph Campbell quote from the interview. And that's why rewatching Power of Myth never gets old
Well I gotta say ... this is one of the best explained pieces on this subject ever - also quite partial since part of my email is in honor to Dante. Such a great piece of work and so many people don't get it -- I love how you bring to light that Dante called it La Comedia.
Thanks Jennifer. And if you write about Dante I must check it out!
I love Dante - my email has his name in it -- so in that way I honor him :) But I don't write about him, I will leave that to you.
I thought so, too. As I was reading it, I thought, "Wow, I wish I had this when I taught seniors in high school." I would have handed this out the first day.
Well said -- it's such a beautiful breakdown and when you read it that you - you are like Yes -- give me more!
So fascinating! I feel like the way he talks about heaven is a metaphor for all celebrity in a way— whether it’s a famous person or a guru or a scholar or anyone we gaze at without valuing our own wisdom. All of a sudden we’ve forgotten our own experience or worth or intrinsic divinity and have given it over to someone else. This post also reminded me of a time—it was right after 9/11 in New York City and I was at a church on 5th avenue with a friend who worked with firefighters. I sat next to a Franciscan nun, and at the end of the mass we were talking and I said I wished the priest had focused less on the afterlife and more about how to build peace and hope in this world. She had the brightest blue eyes and she turned to me and said, “oh I know! The Kingdom is now!!” I love the way your post brought me back to this memory—your close read of a book I will probably never get through. It was just the idea that heaven might not be the end game. Or that it might exist in different ways, or hell might not be the worst thing either. I didn’t know that about limbo, but I loved hearing about it. It made me think of all the places to find heaven on earth, or even something better. Thanks for the deep dive!
Wow Rebecca, thank you so much for sharing this memory. Yes, we can't really live our lives in preparation for something that might never come. And I myself don't want to get swallowed in a bigger thing, but to do my thing. William Blake once wrote a friend in a letter: "Jesus is the only God, and so am I, and so are you".
Yes, I am with you on all of it! I love that about being alive--the sense that I'm part of a bigger, wonderful thing, and that's why it's so important to sing my true note as clearly as I can. Which is probably what all the artists in limbo are doing, and I'm guessing it's loud in there. Thanks for appreciating my memory. That nun was so wonderful--when I think of it now it feels like the whole conversation was a visitation. I am not often in church, and it was pure chance that I sat next to her and I don't even remember how we started talking. Later in the conversation I asked her if she missed having love affairs, and she said, "I fall in love all the time!!"
Was Blake a Quaker? That's a very Quakerly thing to say--except for the "Jesus is the only God" part.
Blake wasn't a Quaker. He was a church of one... Created his whole mythology and everything - which he knew and confessed was all in his mind, in the most important of human faculties for him: the imagination
Thought provoking and well explained. I haven't read this book in many years, but it was a joy to read your approach to it. I tend to agree with you.
Thank you. Hope to meet you in Limbo someday
I was listening to a talk about pleasure and one thing stuck out to me, We find it hard to imagine infinite pleasure. It's almost if human bodies are designed against it. We can imagine infinite suffering, and can describe it. Hell.
Pleasure is momentary. And it seems automatic, thoughtless. So describing pleasure is difficult. Dante becomes less readable as he ascends towards heaven just as "All happy families are alike; each unhappy family is unhappy in its own way" everything becomes vague.
I wonder if limbo is conceivable, and in its way a meaningful heaven for you. Versus an inconceivable heaven of delight that sounds about as meaningful as being drugged out of your mind but happy.
What would we choose? It's a serious question you posed there
In Matthew 25:46 Jesus spoke in a single sentence of everlasting (aionios) punishment and of life eternal (aionios). Since the righteous will be given eternal, or everlasting, life, many theologians believe the punishing of the wicked must last as long as the life given to the righteous. But this cannot be reconciled with the statement that those cast into the lake of fire perish—they are killed. As explained elsewhere, they suffer death—the second death (Revelation 2:11; Revelation 20:6, Revelation 14:1-20; Revelation 21:8).
A plain and simple meaning of Matthew 25:46 that fits with the rest of the Bible is that the wicked are cast into a fire that annihilates them—renders them forever extinct. The resulting punishment of being cast into the aionios fire is a one-time event. It is a permanent punishment, the results of which will remain forever—that is, eternal death. It is not ongoing punishing that continues forever without end. This is the only explanation that agrees with the rest of the Scriptures.
https://www.ucg.org/bible-study-too...he-bible-speak-of-hellfire-that-lasts-forever
A most interesting essay, Chen. I must caution you that I am a secular humanist so the afterlife is a myth as far as I'm concerned. There is good and there is evil. Good is good, and evil is bad. If you wish to clutter things up with God and the Devil, Angels and Demons, Saints and Sinners, it makes for a good narrative but I believe it over complicates things if you decide to go that route. The Hindus believe in reincarnation and there is some scientific evidence for it, but I think it would be presumptuous of me to think that, after my demise, I would qualify for that fate. Besides, after one go-round in this 'veil of tears' why would I want to go again? Thank you for sharing your thoughts on this matter, my friend.
Thanks you David for your perspective. All cultures seek a way to dethrone death from its place as the final experience it seem to me. Would you agree?
Tes, Chen, I do agree but this tendency seems to be waning just like Religion. Think about it: during the Middle Ages, Religion held sway with an iron fist and everyone was consumed with their niche in the Afterlife. After the Protestant Reformation and many 'Holy' wars and the Enlightenment, many people today don't put much stock in Religion. Granted, the Theocracies in the Middle East still try to abide by religious principles but many of their constituents are 'restless'. Large swaths of Asia still venerate their ancestors but religious fervor, in general, seems to be lessening. As the population becomes more educated,, Religion has lost a lot of the 'glamor' it once commanded. Science has claimed a share of the authority that Religion once had and today, many people approach Death from a more logical viewpoint. I hope this has clarified my position about Death and the Afterlife, my friend.
Nietzsche either had syphilis or congenital cerebral disease or both. The abysmal thought is that your life recurs endlessly which entails always being unwell. If you can accept it you reach the state of grace. As for forming one’s own opinion Nietzsche says: leave me now and find yourselves; and only then when you have denied me will I return to you.
Well then, his health did color his opinions, Robert. I don't deny him, I'm just not that interested in him.
Each to his own
Amen to that, Robert.
The most influential thinker of the last 200 years claimed that his most important thought was the eternal recurrence of the same. He said that every life repeats itself exactly as it happened and will happen to the end of time which doesn’t end. That is his abysmal thought. He said: to redeem the past is to turn every ‘it was’ into ‘I wanted it thus’ that alone I would call redemption. Whether it is heaven or hell is how you look at it. It is an attempt to reconcile the problem of free will and determinism.
Was this 'influential thinker' a Calvinist? As I said, Robert, I am a secular humanist and I find these various philospies somewhat interesting, but I put no stock in any of them. Acording to some people who are much more intelligent than I, 'Free Will' does not actually exist, but what we do have is so close to free will that it is indistinguishable from it. That is splitting hairs as far as I'm concerned, so I don't worry about it. I hope this has clarified my position on these matters.
He was a Lutheran in his early life. I was referring to Nietzsche. Apparently Lutherans have a doctrine called amor fati I love my fate which he seemed unable to escape. But he got the eternal recurrence from pre-Socratic thinkers.
If I remember correctly, Nietzsche suffered from poor health most of his life and this probably contributed to his various opinions. After his death, his sister tried to twist his works in support of Fascism, but this was rejected by other philosophers and he enjoyed a resurgence in popularity in the 60s and his works do influence many other philosophrts even today. Perhaps you would label me a Contrarian, but I prefer to form my own opinions even if they are in opposition to the accepted views. As I stated to Chen, there is a small body of scientific evidence in support of re-incarnation. I hope not! Once is enough!
I still like to think of Dante settling scores.
I'm petty that way. XD
He’s doing a lot of that too. Don’t get me wrong
Although he isn't Sicilian, he is still Italian. It's hardwired. And the way he does it is so funny.
Being Maltese, I chuckled (in agreement)!
I once heard someone speak this wonderful language which sounded like Moroccan (my family is originally from Morocco) and Italian combined - both languages I adore. It was Maltese
It's a rarity in Aotearoa! You're completely onto it too- ancient Maghrebi. That's awesome, such a wondrous place Morocco is- always reminded me of a vivid splash of fantastical, delicious colours and patterns! I hope you don't mind me enquiring- are you of Sephardic descent? My Maltese family has some Sephardic ancestry.
I am! yes. Both of my family names (my father's and Mother's) are Sephardic in origin. I was told that Malul is an ancient word in Spanish which means Oak tree... But I'm not sure how factual this is
Fascinating. I recently read Fred Chappell's poem Midquest, which is a sort of Appalachian version of Dante's midlife evaluation. Your essay has enriched my reading of it considerably.
I haven't heard about the poem. Will check it out. Thanks
Fred was my writing instructor in the 80s. He died early this year, so I've been reading some of his work I'd missed. Your post was very timely in shedding more light on how he was influenced by Dante.
Oh wow. So special thanks for sharing this with us
This is such a compelling argument! It sounds like a perpetual salon, which totally appeals to me. Who decides if we've sinned, though?
Thought you'd enjoy knowing about this very cool theoretical project by the early 20th century Italian architect, Giuseppe Terragni, called the Danteum. It's a physical version of Dante's great work. https://archeyes.com/the-danteum-giuseppe-terragni/
So cool. Remind me of the digital Library of Babel that someone created after Borges' short and perfect story
Ooooo - is there a link to that?
Sure. Here:
https://libraryofbabel.info/
Wow, that is really something.
Fun article to read! Thanks for writing it! However, I question the decision to go to the first circle of hell over Heaven (not Eden--Eden is the Earthly Paradise at the top of Mount Purgatory). I love studying the nature of things and think an eternity with Homer, Aristotle, Cicero would be wonderful. However, although it is good, is it the best? Human nature enjoys the big questions and the philosophy behind them, I think, because we engage powerfully with our intellects. Our minds grapple with the questions; we use the faculty most proper to man: reason. However, and this can only be known with a Christian faith, that reason is the imago Dei: the image and likeness of God. We fill our intellects on Earth and engage in these universal questions because it is godlike and good. We are trying to fill our intellects. In Limbo, our intellects would certainly be expanded and more powerful than most on earth--if not all. However, I think a closer examination of Paradiso will be fruitful in this matter. Dante's journey is three movements of the soul: the repentance of the will (Hell), the correction of the will (Purgatory), and the filling of the intellect (Heaven). Dante is wicked smart in Heaven. He correctly answers all questions concerning faith, hope, and love. He also does not understand everything, as he continually asks Beatrice about this and that. Remember we have not talked about the nature of God. Crack open the summa Prima Pars. Read a bit. Read about man's final end (idk if that one is prima pars) God is man's end. Heaven fills the intellect and will. Limbo would be a cool idea if we could escape earth and go there for a little while. But not eternity. Heaven will only suffice. Thanks for reading this long comment. Message me with any questions. I love Dante (but not as much as Homer). I love discussing him as well.
What an awesome publication to read. I feel a bit more intelligent just experiencing the dichotomy of introspection and history that you so skillfully wove together.
Thanks for the Kind words
Hey Chen, this is awesome. I tried to reply to you in chat but for some reason chat is not working for me. Thanks for pointing me to this. ❤️
This was a wonderfully interesting piece to read. Thank you for the suggestion. I look forward to reading more of what you write about.
Thanks! Glad to hear it
Chen, you might have said this about Limbo. Students asked me about this a lot.
According to Christian belief, only those who were baptized and sought repentance for their sins in life can enter Eden, likely after undergoing purification in Purgatory. We may not accept it, but that's how things happen.
Why did they have to go there if they were virtuous? It's kind of bad luck, right? They were born before Jesus. So, they never had a chance to follow, so they ended up in a not so bad spot in the first circle of hell.
Yes, thanks Keri. It does seem very unfair... almost criminally so, doesn't it?
Love this fun an insightful examination of the worlds Dante describes! Have to agree with the assessment here... I've been ranting about a (somewhat raunchier) version of this idea since high school. "...if you want to preserve your individuality and engage in open discussions about life, the universe, and everything else with the greatest minds of the ancient world, as well as from the Muslim, and possibly the Jewish, and the polytheistic traditions, I'd wager you're better off being sent to the first circle of hell. In heaven, you'll be too busy marveling at the beauty of God to get anything else done."
haha... I'd love to hear the raunchier version
Nice deep dive. Dante is like Milton in that the most compelling and inspired sections of his prose ironically involve what he, for lack of a better word, condemns, at least outwardly (in MIlton's case, Satan, and in Dante's Hell).
I don't remember that Joseph Campbell quote from the interview. And that's why rewatching Power of Myth never gets old
I agree. They both shine when focusing on what they oppose. But I do find Dante's Purgatory to be no less facinating
I don’t remember it as vividly, but I’m sure it is. Torment and suffering is always the easier sell