Thank you for this very interesting piece. I have been reading Norse mythology with great pleasure and find that it resonates in my heart, and in my loins. I am intrigued by your insistence on the lack of psychological complexity of Beowulf. My gut feeling, which could be completely miss guided, is that we as Westerners need to torture ourselves, in order to feel that something is happening. Of course if you were trying to feel excited, watching a story on Netflix, you need some drama and some contradictions. When you are out there, facing the monster with your bare hands, and you do manage to kill it, you don’t need any extra drama. What you need is courage strength, and to be resolute. No one really knows what goes on in Beowulf’s heart when he stands up to the monster, what matters is that he saw the fate of people as more important than his own; that’s where the drama lays…
Thank you for this. I am reminded by the love people hold (myself included) for the characters in a Miyazaki's film. They are somewhat like Beowulf in that they do not hesitate. They act. They know what is good and do it with no additional qualms.
Yes, I think that "on Netflix, you need some [psychological] drama and some contradictions," because 1) it can be interesting and meaningful and 2) also a cover and fill for weak plot or very limited social and intellectual worlds and situations and principles. Something of the inverse is true for shows heavy on plot drama and plot reversals and recognitions. A special show or movie then is something like Spotlight which is strong, intimately and sweepingly, in character, plot, principle, society, and intelligence... That said, any show or story that is clever and careful enough to stylize itself toward and around its strengths and interests and away from its limits may cultivate a following for what it is - whether a character "study," or even a dynamic portrait of a few characteristics, or a plot exploration, or an intellectual or social ride, or a journey of principle. You have to think though that most stories that are especially good "at what they do" are also sneaky good in pithy moments at "what they don't do." The comprehensive quality is still there even though the qualitative focus is very particularized. It seems most of the best quality popular shows and reads fit this approach.
They did that to sweeney astray too, ran christianity over it, but it never takes it over..
favorite old time poem. Christianity put an introduction on it, as far as I can tell, and then it just remained the Sweeney going astray.
I was always going astray myself, drawn away to live with the birds, in the glen. wish is an existence beyond acceptance of reality-- rejecting humanity and living with the fucking birds.
OHH I wonder if that book ever made it into calligraphy anywhere. Seamus Heaney does a famous translation adaption. Here is an academically discussed collective translation of the original. Its quite good.... https://celt.ucc.ie/published/T302018.html
What a magnificent piece of reflection that helps us to de-mythologize, to gain new visions and awareness passing through our mythological limits, opening ourselves to changement and transformation. I think this is contribution of real culture.🙏
Thank you for steering me towards this piece. I had not revisited these epic tales in the past 40 plus years, and I had forgotten how I used to revel in their telling. Well written and analyzed, and again, thank you.
The sagas are a rich source of the kind of descriptions you mention. This was part of the poet's art. The Sagas of The Icelanders, the Prose Edda, even the Saga of Ragnar Lothbrok (The 6 seasons of 'Vikings' is in my humble opinion a masterpiece of modern serialisation, and loosely based on the saga), contain some of the most elaborate, at times baffling descriptions for things. I like 'cheek-surge' meaning vomit... Homer is all psychology, while the sagas of Vikings are more an exposition of existential despair (boredom).
You're touching on something really fascinating here. Perhaps this is a bit ignorant on my part, but it seems that Greek mythology draws from an unusually rich mythical substrate. Its timeless characters, whether divine or demiurge, are flawed, complex, and, often, doomed by the vicissitudes of fate and personal fortune. In your essay, you seem to be asking: Do we learn as much from heroism as hubris? My perusal of Greek mythology shows a masterclass in vanity, hubris, and greed, many of the lessons of which we seem to learn cyclically.
Anyway, just some stray thoughts. Really great, penetrating essay, Chen.
Another great article! I've never read the original Beowulf, but I've seen a few films based upon it and read a comic version. I really should read the original at some point, as well as the Divine Comedy.
A few thoughts;
* It's interesting what you say about Beowulf being a dull character due to his perfectness. This is the same reason why Superman has never appealed to me in the world of comics. He's the "perfect human" (despite not actually being human) and invulnerable. There is no question that he'll win the day. Nothing is a challenge to him and it's simply boring to read.
* I wouldn't be surprised in the Christians put something into Beowulf. It seems they couldn't help but bastardise everything.
The ancient poetry of the north preserves the cosmology of the Nordic world.
Meanwhile, the Greek epic is more of a cult of personality.
It is generally agreed upon that the Geats were a branch of the Goths, and the Goths have a secure place in history.
Perhaps the most irritating factor when reviewing the extant record of northern lore, was the pervasive, aggressive insertion of a christian perspective into every mythological event. This was a pattern for christianity set in its earliest days, where christian "editing" of the record actually meant rewriting significant passages of the record. Christians were utterly, fantatically obsessed with forcing their world view upon everyone.
The facts are that this overlay was incomplete, and the record reveals a way of life, an understanding of the cosmos that decidedly has no relation to christianity, or its myriad mental disorders.
Its important to recognize that Beowulf was largely buried by a world convinced of the superiority, the grandeur of the Mediterranean civilization complex. As such, it took Richard Wagner to remind the world of the power of the Nordic lore.
The so-called mental state of Beowulf simply is the state of the Nordic warrior. One will find exactly this state illustrated blatantly, evidently, in the heavily smeared "Panzerlied", and the record of Ernst Juenger.
There is, in Samurai tradition the notion that one's mind must be clear, open, and an aid to the warrior. This tenet matches up quite well with the Nordic. Perhaps it was destiny that the two would become allies and challenge the world once more with a light not easily forgotten in this decrepit time of despair.
I've a dual language Beowulf on the shelf, the rhythm and alteration of Old English is impressive. You can almost see and hear the bard, and the mead drinkers holding their breath awaiting the next line as he says; "Grendel gongan, godes yrre bær;" Grendel goes, God's ire he bears
Great article, very interesting. The Greeks definitely loved for hubris to be the downfall of their heroes; I'm less familiar with Norse/British mythology, but uncomplicated men getting things done seems to be a common theme there, and they left the drama to the gods. I'd assume it's a difference in the culture, influenced by environment. In the colder north, you just need to do the right thing or you die. Along the Mediterranean, life is easier so you have more time to philosophize.
I couldn't help but remember, when reading your thoughts about uncomplicatedness of Beowulf (I don't remember the poem already, thank you for bringing it back in such gorgeous way), the words of Pierre about Natasha Rostova(I I think):
"она не удостаивает быть умною"
maybe that's a bit what happens here-ot just my association
and-interestingly-the post has a strong inner rhythm to it, like it's some sort of saga, or "white" poetry. I read it almost aloud because of that, and knew how the lines "are"to be divided in order for it to become a poem, rather than prose.
Now I want to hear from Polyphemus.
Theocritus wrote a poem where Polyphemus is the main character: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idyll_XI
He answer only to no one.
What a weird guy he was, right?
He had a very one dimensional view of the world at best
https://bobkirchman.substack.com/p/searching-for-cyclopes
Thank you for this very interesting piece. I have been reading Norse mythology with great pleasure and find that it resonates in my heart, and in my loins. I am intrigued by your insistence on the lack of psychological complexity of Beowulf. My gut feeling, which could be completely miss guided, is that we as Westerners need to torture ourselves, in order to feel that something is happening. Of course if you were trying to feel excited, watching a story on Netflix, you need some drama and some contradictions. When you are out there, facing the monster with your bare hands, and you do manage to kill it, you don’t need any extra drama. What you need is courage strength, and to be resolute. No one really knows what goes on in Beowulf’s heart when he stands up to the monster, what matters is that he saw the fate of people as more important than his own; that’s where the drama lays…
Thank you for this. I am reminded by the love people hold (myself included) for the characters in a Miyazaki's film. They are somewhat like Beowulf in that they do not hesitate. They act. They know what is good and do it with no additional qualms.
in fact, but nevertheless, I also like Achilles , I think I would’ve reacted the same way in his boots: fuck Agamemnon That arrogant prick😎
Yes, I think that "on Netflix, you need some [psychological] drama and some contradictions," because 1) it can be interesting and meaningful and 2) also a cover and fill for weak plot or very limited social and intellectual worlds and situations and principles. Something of the inverse is true for shows heavy on plot drama and plot reversals and recognitions. A special show or movie then is something like Spotlight which is strong, intimately and sweepingly, in character, plot, principle, society, and intelligence... That said, any show or story that is clever and careful enough to stylize itself toward and around its strengths and interests and away from its limits may cultivate a following for what it is - whether a character "study," or even a dynamic portrait of a few characteristics, or a plot exploration, or an intellectual or social ride, or a journey of principle. You have to think though that most stories that are especially good "at what they do" are also sneaky good in pithy moments at "what they don't do." The comprehensive quality is still there even though the qualitative focus is very particularized. It seems most of the best quality popular shows and reads fit this approach.
thank you for your thoughts, as a writer of mythologically inspired stories, I am interested in what you just expressed, and I will think on it
They did that to sweeney astray too, ran christianity over it, but it never takes it over..
favorite old time poem. Christianity put an introduction on it, as far as I can tell, and then it just remained the Sweeney going astray.
I was always going astray myself, drawn away to live with the birds, in the glen. wish is an existence beyond acceptance of reality-- rejecting humanity and living with the fucking birds.
OHH I wonder if that book ever made it into calligraphy anywhere. Seamus Heaney does a famous translation adaption. Here is an academically discussed collective translation of the original. Its quite good.... https://celt.ucc.ie/published/T302018.html
Do Spenser's The Fairy Queen. I've been reading it again lately.
What a magnificent piece of reflection that helps us to de-mythologize, to gain new visions and awareness passing through our mythological limits, opening ourselves to changement and transformation. I think this is contribution of real culture.🙏
Thank you Roberta, as always!
Great article, thanks
Thank you! glad you liked it
Thank you for steering me towards this piece. I had not revisited these epic tales in the past 40 plus years, and I had forgotten how I used to revel in their telling. Well written and analyzed, and again, thank you.
Thank you for writing this! I have zero knowledge about Achilles & Beowulf, and know I am excited to know more about them😊.
The sagas are a rich source of the kind of descriptions you mention. This was part of the poet's art. The Sagas of The Icelanders, the Prose Edda, even the Saga of Ragnar Lothbrok (The 6 seasons of 'Vikings' is in my humble opinion a masterpiece of modern serialisation, and loosely based on the saga), contain some of the most elaborate, at times baffling descriptions for things. I like 'cheek-surge' meaning vomit... Homer is all psychology, while the sagas of Vikings are more an exposition of existential despair (boredom).
Fascinating distinction!
You're touching on something really fascinating here. Perhaps this is a bit ignorant on my part, but it seems that Greek mythology draws from an unusually rich mythical substrate. Its timeless characters, whether divine or demiurge, are flawed, complex, and, often, doomed by the vicissitudes of fate and personal fortune. In your essay, you seem to be asking: Do we learn as much from heroism as hubris? My perusal of Greek mythology shows a masterclass in vanity, hubris, and greed, many of the lessons of which we seem to learn cyclically.
Anyway, just some stray thoughts. Really great, penetrating essay, Chen.
It's true we find emo-rocker Achilles way more interesting. The hard-to-get badboy always gets the girl. And the tripods.
Another great article! I've never read the original Beowulf, but I've seen a few films based upon it and read a comic version. I really should read the original at some point, as well as the Divine Comedy.
A few thoughts;
* It's interesting what you say about Beowulf being a dull character due to his perfectness. This is the same reason why Superman has never appealed to me in the world of comics. He's the "perfect human" (despite not actually being human) and invulnerable. There is no question that he'll win the day. Nothing is a challenge to him and it's simply boring to read.
* I wouldn't be surprised in the Christians put something into Beowulf. It seems they couldn't help but bastardise everything.
* I can never read about Troy without thinking of this - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tS_JBDRk8o0
The ancient poetry of the north preserves the cosmology of the Nordic world.
Meanwhile, the Greek epic is more of a cult of personality.
It is generally agreed upon that the Geats were a branch of the Goths, and the Goths have a secure place in history.
Perhaps the most irritating factor when reviewing the extant record of northern lore, was the pervasive, aggressive insertion of a christian perspective into every mythological event. This was a pattern for christianity set in its earliest days, where christian "editing" of the record actually meant rewriting significant passages of the record. Christians were utterly, fantatically obsessed with forcing their world view upon everyone.
The facts are that this overlay was incomplete, and the record reveals a way of life, an understanding of the cosmos that decidedly has no relation to christianity, or its myriad mental disorders.
Its important to recognize that Beowulf was largely buried by a world convinced of the superiority, the grandeur of the Mediterranean civilization complex. As such, it took Richard Wagner to remind the world of the power of the Nordic lore.
The so-called mental state of Beowulf simply is the state of the Nordic warrior. One will find exactly this state illustrated blatantly, evidently, in the heavily smeared "Panzerlied", and the record of Ernst Juenger.
There is, in Samurai tradition the notion that one's mind must be clear, open, and an aid to the warrior. This tenet matches up quite well with the Nordic. Perhaps it was destiny that the two would become allies and challenge the world once more with a light not easily forgotten in this decrepit time of despair.
I've a dual language Beowulf on the shelf, the rhythm and alteration of Old English is impressive. You can almost see and hear the bard, and the mead drinkers holding their breath awaiting the next line as he says; "Grendel gongan, godes yrre bær;" Grendel goes, God's ire he bears
Great article, very interesting. The Greeks definitely loved for hubris to be the downfall of their heroes; I'm less familiar with Norse/British mythology, but uncomplicated men getting things done seems to be a common theme there, and they left the drama to the gods. I'd assume it's a difference in the culture, influenced by environment. In the colder north, you just need to do the right thing or you die. Along the Mediterranean, life is easier so you have more time to philosophize.
I'm not sure this is true of other tales. Hamlet is originally from that part of the world. The Northman depicts it beautifully
I could be wrong, it's happened before. :)
However, The Northman portrays a much more straightforward character than Shakespeare does, I think.
very interesting, thank you, Chen, yet again
I couldn't help but remember, when reading your thoughts about uncomplicatedness of Beowulf (I don't remember the poem already, thank you for bringing it back in such gorgeous way), the words of Pierre about Natasha Rostova(I I think):
"она не удостаивает быть умною"
maybe that's a bit what happens here-ot just my association
and-interestingly-the post has a strong inner rhythm to it, like it's some sort of saga, or "white" poetry. I read it almost aloud because of that, and knew how the lines "are"to be divided in order for it to become a poem, rather than prose.